tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post3910406949062440363..comments2023-09-02T04:30:46.604-07:00Comments on Musings of an intrigued nobody: Failing at Feminism; A How-To GuideSoggyMoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12357790920813258281noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-26141648426805556892013-03-19T23:26:11.361-07:002013-03-19T23:26:11.361-07:00The thing about Elevatorgate is that it has led me...The thing about Elevatorgate is that it has led me to a fair number of women who adamantly do not identify themselves as feminists nor are they women who are pining for the old days.<br /><br />The importance of this is not that it is suddenly possible to not be a feminist while still being for equality, but that there are other people, even supposed victims, who support the goal without subscribing to the dogma and rhetoric.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927844049139523276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-32303755262786620862013-02-21T08:08:34.474-08:002013-02-21T08:08:34.474-08:00I realize I'm a little late to the game, but t...I realize I'm a little late to the game, but this expressed my interpretation perfectly. Thank goodness there are people like Rebecca and PZ to tell me how to be a proper woman!Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11985701197931676550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-75108140264604601072012-12-26T19:39:55.117-08:002012-12-26T19:39:55.117-08:00I have to agree with pitchguest. I had no idea wh...I have to agree with pitchguest. I had no idea who she was prior to elevatogate, other than occasionally seeing mention of her on PZ's blog, but even then there was never any actual information about her. It was not until elevatorgate - and PZ's truly unhinged freakout at anyone who did not buy the party line - that I even found out who she actually was. And since finding out, I am still trying to figure out why she has such clout. Personally, I think PZ has a crush on her - I can't think of any other reason that he would have acted like he did. He attacked Thunderfoot, for crying out loud! nmanninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767343547942014627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-71043275589474607372012-12-01T05:04:27.022-08:002012-12-01T05:04:27.022-08:00You should blog that, it's too good to be a co...You should blog that, it's too good to be a comment :DUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14892324603920381998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-50392935771234137352012-12-01T04:50:45.173-08:002012-12-01T04:50:45.173-08:00Hi,
First of all, fantastic article, not sure if ...Hi,<br /><br />First of all, fantastic article, not sure if you'll read this since it's at the bottom of the pile, but good work anyway :) Just a few points:<br /><br />1/ FGM vs. MGM: Both of these terms describe a variety of practices from castration, penile subincision and clitoral amputation to more "minor" procedures such as circumcision and labio-ectomy.<br /><br />Obviously the former group can't really be compared to the latter group in severity, but we do have to remember that FGM doesn't automatically fall into the former and MGM doesn't automatically fall into the latter. It's also important to remember that both MGM and FGM exist within a larger context of bodily modification for cultural identity and aren't necessarily about control of one gender or the other (although this probably is the case with circumcision and clitoral amputation).<br /><br />2/ Well said about the name-calling. Personally I vote that stuff down. I see women doing it too but I think verbal abuse is more expected/taken less seriously in male groups than it is in women's. I don't think threats of violence are ok, but at the same time I don't take them seriously. If every person who threatened to kill me had actually tried, I almost certainly wouldn't be alive right now. But yeah, it just damages their credibility (and, unfortunately, the credibility of anyone making a similar argument).<br /><br />3/ "being female means I don't have to worry so much about making you feel intimidated" Er, try it :/. I guarantee you that men aren't the self confident gods old spice ads make us wish we were.<br /><br />4/ Groping, thank you for not identifying gropers as being representative of all men! So many feminists do, and it's pretty disturbing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14892324603920381998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-8926726343587077922012-11-02T15:40:01.415-07:002012-11-02T15:40:01.415-07:00I’ve noticed a number of persistent confusions sur...I’ve noticed a number of persistent confusions surrounding this affair with Watson et.al. These consist of a.) Misunderstanding what distinguishes RadFem from other strains of feminism, b.) Differentiating individual behavior from group behavior, and c.) the validity of social concerns writ large vs the "female" concerns of individuals. I say "female" in quotes, because when an individual couches their subjective concerns or political opinions in a broader distinction like class, gender, or race, preferring to speak "as a woman", it has the effect of embellishing the authority of their subjectivity. Their opinion transforms into a more objective sounding opinion being shared by a class of people.<br /><br />For example, I can say "women feel x about y", and use this to substantiate my feelings as an individual. This is not itself illegitimate. I might genuinely believe that my feelings and circumstances objectively have much in common with others, but if I don't qualify my subjectivity, especially if critics address me as an individual, and I reply as if the class I am a member of has been "attacked", there is a rhetorical manipulation in the works. This kind of manipulation has been deployed by Watson et. al., but ironically, it is also common in atheist parlance at conventions and in many of "our" discussions. <br /><br />Blurring the line between self and group is a common mode of framing issues internally. We speak of "theists" and "the religious", because this shorthand is convenient for describing the ideological "Other". This is also the subtext at work in Watson's Slate article. It's the same manipulation of subtext to give an impression that the Skeptic community "has a problem with sexism", and at the same time, her "experiences are the proof". <br /><br />This is a way of baiting of her adversaries, because it creates confusion between two epistemological claims. Some think that the charge is against "Skeptics" as a group. Some feel that the charge is directed at men within the skeptic community. They expect a case to be made, case-by-case.<br /><br />This has been the primary preoccupation with the "particularist" view, that individual cases of misbehavior are the only legitimate basis for entertaining claims that the community as a whole has a problem. These people re waiting for statistical evidence of a trend, and named malefactors. They're enraged when data is not forthcoming, and they continue to hear charges that they as a group are guilty. What this expectation fails to recognize is that such criticism that "the skeptic community has a problem with sexism" is a bifurcated argument. <br /><br />On the one hand, there are particular claims of isolated incidents, but on the other hand is a social theory about patriarchy that "explains" how these behaviors function in society. This confounds those waiting to see points of sexist behaviors charted on a graph, followed by a linear regression to fit the data.<br /><br />The theory that "Skeptics have a problem with sexism" didn't begin with data, it began with ideology, and that ideology informs Watson's understanding of her experiences. Even if her anecdotes are insufficient, her worldview is. This is why, no matter how many times anyone brings up elevatorgate as “not involving personal harm”, the Watsonites accuse critics of "missing the point", or being uninformed about the symbolic significance of the behavior.a0ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10864601338368233951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-71874610905055289432012-11-02T15:32:08.199-07:002012-11-02T15:32:08.199-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.a0ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10864601338368233951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-53508185064185836192012-10-31T05:47:29.662-07:002012-10-31T05:47:29.662-07:00Really, feminism has become so distorted and co-op...Really, feminism has become so distorted and co-opted by radicals (who are inherently opposed to skepticism) that egalitarians are increasingly few and far between. <br /><br />There are certainly still SOME feminists who focus on equality; but being egalitarian is no longer synonymous with being a feminist. The two concepts are diverging rapidly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-1429768606658298292012-10-31T05:44:36.170-07:002012-10-31T05:44:36.170-07:00Excellent summation!Excellent summation!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-78621500419442382912012-10-30T21:40:32.188-07:002012-10-30T21:40:32.188-07:00Just want to say thanks for this. I used to ident...Just want to say thanks for this. I used to identify myself as a passive feminist; I agree with the cause but wasn't active. With the blow back in the skeptic community from "elevatorgate" and the subsequent flocking to the echo room known as freethoughtblogs, I started finding myself arguing against feminists.<br /><br />It's nice to know that there are still feminists who understand what it means to be treated equally and fairly. I wish your blog got more attention.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05778442324801569521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-82436046910243965612012-10-30T06:55:36.996-07:002012-10-30T06:55:36.996-07:00I rarely even try to engage with the idiots on the...I rarely even try to engage with the idiots on their own turf anymore because they will bait and taunt you right before banning you and then bad mouth you where you have no recourse to challenge. Just happened to Noel Plum the other day. Matt Dillahunty (full disclosure-Matt blocked ME from his Twitter for pointing out his early lunacy) was subsequently blocked/banned by the group he had previously been supportive of. It doesn't get any better/worse than that IMHO. Laughably ignorant. I note that Dillahunty has refused to "apologize" for making them look like the idiots we had been telling him they were, so that IS something. Al Stefanelli has seen the light since pouncing on Thunderf00t for "leakgate". He pulled the post bashing TF for same (and has stated it is the ONLY time he has ever erased a post).<br /><br />Slate is just a link-whore site of the lowest form. An upscale Huffington Post. Perfect match for Rebecca's bullsquat.<br /><br />For the record, I have never posted under any name other than my own, so at least they can't toss that grenade my direction. Neither have I called for violence against the agitators. I would like to see them politely shunned from skeptic organizations that I have been fond of for years though. She is NO skeptic.<br /><br />Enjoy.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512796958262494856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-68299772226905213902012-10-30T03:43:04.441-07:002012-10-30T03:43:04.441-07:00Ha ha look it's Oolon, AGAIN!Ha ha look it's Oolon, AGAIN!The Offensive Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02465908989402972703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-77715420276845911132012-10-30T03:06:53.187-07:002012-10-30T03:06:53.187-07:00Hi Rebekah.
Thanks for commenting! I haven't...Hi Rebekah.<br /><br />Thanks for commenting! I haven't seen Benson's reference to this, though - I shall have to have a look.<br /><br />xxxSoggyMoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12357790920813258281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-34040355134323005292012-10-30T03:03:40.374-07:002012-10-30T03:03:40.374-07:00Actually that's an interesting point, Pagan. S...Actually that's an interesting point, Pagan. Surely if women are being perpetually groped and harassed and intimidated at atheist/skeptic conventions as we're told we'd have fresher - and more significant! - incidents to discuss than someone getting asked for coffee well over a year ago?<br /><br />Hmm.SoggyMoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12357790920813258281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-63890704994003120002012-10-29T17:48:13.250-07:002012-10-29T17:48:13.250-07:00Jedibear, you came here and clearly had a chance t...Jedibear, you came here and clearly had a chance to read the actual argument presented and respond in a substantive fashion. Instead you chose to hurl meaningless ad hominems that could literally be directed at any lesser known blogger who ever had the audacity to respond to another, better known blogger.Rebekah Y.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10503127343295402762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-47671724700627950412012-10-29T17:41:21.859-07:002012-10-29T17:41:21.859-07:00This is a fantastic blog. Your writing is very cr...This is a fantastic blog. Your writing is very crisp and on target with the major issues facing nontheists.<br /><br />I found this ironically through Ophelia Benson, who for all her totally unnecessary, sneering condescension towards you, felt some obligation to post it at the end of the day. A look through the mostly infantile, off-handedly dismissive comments in her post shows what sort of ethos ftb fosters.<br /><br />Benson barely manages an on-topic rebuttal to you. I particularly like her tortured hair-splitting over whether condemning an insult like "fucking cunts" was a protection of women per se. Unlike us, Americans and Canadians do not appear in my experience to use "cunt" with any sort of general meaning so she actually missed a much better argument if she were more knowledgeable of English.<br /> <br />Oddly she is best known for demolishing contorted postmodern arguments and religious apologetics in her two books, yet she is clearly a standard bearer for the feminist orthodoxies surrounding ElevatorGate, which rely ironically on certain postmodernist/poststructuralist themes like presumptive guilt as member of a 'privileged' group. <br /><br />At the same time Benson frequently bemoans the faux outrage of Islamophobia, yet when the right-thinking commentariat of A+ show up on her blog to muddle up discussion of Islam, her responses to them are typically very weak. Yet she seems to have that disproportionate, almost paranoid fear of the Christian right in America to the effect that they all live just a step from theocracy and a "new Dark Ages" (that is an actual quote from No Light on her blog). <br /><br />With a worldview like that, no wonder an inappropriate, but ultimately harmless effort to chat a woman up leads to such a broad meltdown.Rebekah Y.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10503127343295402762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-48377173495228130762012-10-29T16:11:04.447-07:002012-10-29T16:11:04.447-07:00Option 1
Watson politely declines an invitation fo...Option 1<br />Watson politely declines an invitation for coffee from a man in an elevator. <br />Both parties continue about their lives as though nothing interesting had happened.<br />Result: No Elevatorgate.<br /><br />Option 2<br />Watson politely declines an invitation for coffee from a man in an elevator.<br />Later, she casually uses it as an example of what she considers inappropriate behaviour from men.<br />Other bloggers and commenters, both men and women, express disagreement with her over the extent to which the behaviour was inappropriate.<br />Watson responds to their comments and accepts that they are quite within their rights to set their own boundaries but stands by hers.<br />Result: No Elevatorgate.<br /><br />Option 3<br />Watson politely declines an invitation for coffee from a man in an elevator.<br />Later, she casually uses it as an example of what she considers inappropriate behaviour from men.<br />Other bloggers and commenters, both men and women, express disagreement with her over the extent to which the behaviour was inappropriate.<br />Watson responds to their comments by dismissing these bloggers as ignorant misogynists. She goes further, using her next public engagement to shame a member of the audience for disagreeing with her, accusing her of "parroting misogynist thought."<br />People point out Watson's poor behaviour.<br />Watson acknowledges her poor behaviour and apologizes. Her supporters acknowledge her mistake and support her apology.<br />Result: No Elevatorgate.<br /><br />Option 4 (this one should sound familiar)<br />Watson politely declines an invitation for coffee from a man in an elevator.<br />Later, she casually uses it as an example of what she considers inappropriate behaviour from men.<br />Other bloggers and commenters, both men and women, express disagreement with her over the extent to which the behaviour was inappropriate.<br />Watson responds to their comments by dismissing these bloggers as ignorant misogynists. She goes further, using her next public engagement to shame a member of the audience for disagreeing with her, accusing her of "parroting misogynist thought."<br />People point out Watson's poor behaviour.<br />Watson continues to treat all criticism as anti-feminism and misogyny. She enlists her supporters to defend her bad behaviour and to do the same.<br />PZ Meyers picks up the argument, Dawkins makes his famous dismissive response, and the whole thing blows up.<br />Result: Elevatorgate.<br /><br />(with thanks to AvalonXQ)<br />Paul Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04751624141556119498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-25315161944554710182012-10-29T13:28:03.054-07:002012-10-29T13:28:03.054-07:00"whose only claims to fame are that she was o..."whose only claims to fame are that she was once retweeted by Dawkins and that she occasionally gets linked for heaping maladroit abuse on more notable people."<br /><br />That's not true, I once got yelled at by Joan Collins in an art gallery in Cannes.SoggyMoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12357790920813258281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-43399175136288450522012-10-29T09:51:20.031-07:002012-10-29T09:51:20.031-07:00Er, 'her personal problem on her self-asteem&#...Er, 'her personal problem on her self-asteem'? I understand that it is believed that American men are much more "civilised" and respectful towards women (myself living in India) but how safe can a woman, in any society feel next to a drunk man who wants to 'bang' her(word used above)? I believe she was pointing out the ineffectiveness of her long talk on feminism, on simply not being heard by people she thought related to her. Is that so bad? <br />Am I to believe that American society is the logical goal for all "super patriarchal" societies, that the fight against stereotypes and thoughts stops there? Dawkins is definitely a great scientist, thinker and writer but is that a way to become untouchable to critique? <br />Would the gentleman who commented just above this one be that generous to poverty and deprivation in America just because there are poorer, more sad places in the world? "let's be real the homeless in America just don't have it as bad as the homeless in the Ethiopia, it's true"<br />Some of the best literature on the world's problems comes from people who go through it. Maybe not Rebecca Watson, but to discredit her line of argument this way doesn't seem right.The eternal cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164272510753336106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-9736932795794215362012-10-29T09:38:51.880-07:002012-10-29T09:38:51.880-07:00You have accurately noted many of the fallacies Re...You have accurately noted many of the fallacies Rebecca Watson employs on a regular basis, and yet she still tries to label herself a 'skeptic.'<br /><br />This is why she fails at skepticism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-20715341462656890022012-10-29T09:37:33.379-07:002012-10-29T09:37:33.379-07:00Yes, Rebecca's latest article bears a strong r...Yes, Rebecca's latest article bears a strong resemblance to Donald Trump's latest college-records-for-charity challenge: "Look at me! I want some more attention!'<br /><br />This is the only skill Watson has ever demonstrated. Whether she's 'respected' for it is debatable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-19813828730050412822012-10-29T09:35:55.573-07:002012-10-29T09:35:55.573-07:00"Apology" implies that he was wrong. He ..."Apology" implies that he was wrong. He was not.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-66758859482880935692012-10-29T08:00:48.482-07:002012-10-29T08:00:48.482-07:00I recently read Watson's article about the ele...I recently read Watson's article about the elevator incident, and honestly I thought she overeacted. I know I'm a man so typically anything I say against feminism is potrayed as sexist. That being said, a man asking you up for coffee for the obvious desire to fuck you isn't sexist, that's a guy respecting the fact that you have a right to say "no" to his asking you up for coffee for the obvious intent to bang you. I understand she may have felt uncomfortable, or nervous, but that sounds more like a personal problem on her self esteem rather than any fault of that mans in the elevator. <br /><br />I feel for Rebecca because in many ways sexism does prevail in skeptic communities, similarly to any other community or group that has more than one sex in it. Sexism even prevails among male or female only groups, man on man, female on female, and vice versa, similar to racism and so on. I notice in many regards she exagerates what is done to her specifically, but it is easy to see something as more grievous when it is done to you than when you are reading it being done to some one else.<br /><br />I haven't read SoggyMog before but I related to her article better, especially in regards to the Dawkin's point, because let's be real women in America just don't have it as bad as women in the middle east, it's true. It's also true male circumcision is not as bad as female mutilation, though objectively they are similar, such things are subjective and personal, and subjectively, the clitoris mutilation is much more painful than the removal of foreskin. Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07879521771335768626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-62578747094434086672012-10-28T22:55:20.644-07:002012-10-28T22:55:20.644-07:00Oolon: Intentionally touching a woman's breast...Oolon: Intentionally touching a woman's breasts without permission is sexual assault. It's illegal. Asking someone to coffee is, well, normal. <br /><br />JediBear: I think you need to review logical fallacies, since they're inapplicable to the arguments Lucy has made. <br /><br />Altair: That's why I've given up the word feminism -- I don't want to be confused for the Watson types.<br /><br />Pitchguest: Yep, Watson's "career" is made of nudie books, bordello parties, and imagined victimhood. While there's nothing wrong with that, I really don't see what it has to do with either atheism or skepticism. Her only real accomplishment has been shredding the movement to bits. It's sad to see liberals falling for this nonsense. And it's also sad to see her rehashing what happened a year and a half ago in Slate, without any rebuttal allowed. <br /><br />As for Lucy, she's terrific. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3003200974688946575.post-34177391007384850152012-10-28T16:57:18.487-07:002012-10-28T16:57:18.487-07:00Good article Lucy. Thank you for this.
Would it ...Good article Lucy. Thank you for this.<br /><br />Would it be overly optimistic of me to infer that, as Rebecca Watson is still going on about a relatively harmless episode nearly 18 months ago, there have been no subsequent egregious acts of misogyny in real life since that time in atheist/sceptic circles?<br /><br />Are we now now left with the general background noise of internet trolls and jokers?<br /><br />Paul Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04751624141556119498noreply@blogger.com